If you're having problems with USB ports, read on...

[mike315]

Like Jedi_Jos in this thread, I found that an UNinstall of ALL USB Controllers followed by letting WindowsXP "find" the USB controllers again on a cold, re-Start solved all my USB problems.

I built two 975X PUEs for two different people, finished them about 10 days apart.  They both ran fine for about a week and then on the same day, in two different houses over 25 miles apart they both "lost" all USB devices.  Yes, the USB Controllers still showed just fine in Device Manager but every USB port was dead.

I went to both locations, UNinstalled ALL USB Controllers, let WindowsXP COLD START re-boot and re-find all controllers, which it did.  All USB ports went immediately active and have been fine for about two weeks since.  By the way, I didn't unplug or re-plug anything.

I can't prove my theory, but both PCs were set to download WindowsXP updates AUTOMATICALLY and INSTALL them, and both PCs were using Broadband, i.e., "always on".  Tell me I'm crazy, but I think a WindowsXP update knocked out the USB ports.

OK, I'm crazy, but answer me this:  What are the odds that two PCs - in different locations - would experience the SAME exact HARDWARE problem - and no others before or since - at the exact same time? 

And, if you Google for USB problems IN GENERAL, you'll find other people experiencing the same thing about the same time, especially if they use WindowsXP BUT do not have Internet Explorer 7 (IE7) installed . . . which was exactly the situation with my two 975x builds.  Also, many of these people identify their recent problems as USB wireless mice problems, which is how both my build PCs were being run.  By the way, IE7 has already been identified as causing driver problems with some hardware, e.g., older model scanners.

One more question (to ask yourself): 

In all the time you've been using/building PCs, whether it be years, weeks, or days . . . when you've encountered trouble, what percentage of the time could you conclusively trace your problem to hardware? . . . to software, including drivers?  . . . I rest my case.

[Mike]

Yes, uninstalling the USB in Windoze and Window$' reinstallation can solve issues, but if you have a USB cluster from you case to the MOBO and this case unit uses an OC connector(9th wire to the #10 pin) it has been shown to cause the problems with USB.  This thread is a post of this discovery and a means to fix the issue if you have THIS situation(a case USB unit connected to the MOBO). 

We often ask if people have a case USB connected and make the reccommendation in this thread as well as uninstalling USB in windows and letting XP rediscover and reinstall the drivers.  Additionally users should check the power management tab for each of the USB root hubs(in properties) to ensure that "Turn off this device to save power" option is unticked. 

[stahlwird]

I can't prove my theory, but both PCs were set to download WindowsXP updates AUTOMATICALLY and INSTALL them, and both PCs were using Broadband, i.e., "always on".  Tell me I'm crazy, but I think a WindowsXP update knocked out the USB ports.

OK, I'm crazy, but answer me this:  What are the odds that two PCs - in different locations - would experience the SAME exact HARDWARE problem - and no others before or since - at the exact same time? 

Mike315,

Good points, all.  But, I'm running XP Pro SP1 on DSL, with NO updates allowed (no, I don't use either IE or OE, and I've never had a virus, worm, trojan, or what have you). 

First time I tried my flash drive in the front connector, I got a message something to the effect that I "must install SP2".  Well, I did that, and it screwed up my system terribly.  Even after uninstalling SP2, the system was still flaky.  So, I did a Repair install (NOT a Recovery).  That straightened out most problems, but I still have problems with my flash drive in a front port--no problems in any of the rear ports.  Interestingly, Linux has no problem in those ports--just have to define the file system for it.

I will try yours, and the other poster's, suggestion of uninstalling the USB ports and powering down, then let Windoze discover them anew.  Hope that works for me.

Incidentally, after my previous post about my Lian Li case, I put it on the workbench and discovered that there is NO wire to the pin 10 location on the plugs from the case front connectors.  So, I don't have to cut or pull out anything.  Of course, I don't know about the actual connectors themselve at the case front--they are in a molded rubber housing and totally inaccesible.  So, I'm hoping the uninstall/cold reinstall will fix things.

Stahlwird

[mike315]

Stahlwird,

Thanks for the additional information, especially with regard to my WindowsXP auto updates theory.  Your experiences pretty well shoots down my theory . . . that's why I called it a "theory".  d:-}) 

It is interesting to hear about your particular situation, and it does make me think that at least Windows might still be THE culprit behind our USB experience with dead USB connectors.

I hope the UNinstall - cold-start RE-install (find) works for you.  Both my 975Xs that experienced the problem are still showing all USB connectors working, including the two on the front panel of both cases.

Thanks again for posting.

[stahlwird]

Well, it's back to the old drawing board, guys.

I tried the suggestion of uninstalling the Standard and Enhanced USB, powering down, then letting XP "rediscover" the USB ports and load drivers.  No joy!  Plug my flash drive into the front ports and get "Unknown device....".  Still works fine in rear ports.

I even took a spare, clean hard drive and did a fresh install of XP Pro SP1, including only those drivers to support my K9N Diamond, sound, LAN, and the 3DFuzion video card.  Still same result; so, it's not a corrupted copy of Windoze.

I tried plugging a generic USB hub into the front panel.  Windoze sees it and tells me, but no complaints or problems.  Then, I plug my flash drive into the hub, and it starts with that "Unknown device" stuff again.  I removed the hub, and plugged my USB printer into one of the front ports.  No complaints, but it starts flashing the "Safely Remove Hardware" icon on and off about every second.  Tried to print, and it says the printer is off line.

The wire bundle from the front ports of my Lian Li PC7B case to the mobo headers DO NOT have anything going to pin 10.  Now, I'm wondering if inside that molded plastic/rubber housing on the front of the case that contains the USB jacks, if one of the ground wires might be attached to what WOULD have been wired to the USBOC pin on the header.

Oh well, just spinning my wheels.  I may send Lian Li a message, copying the pertinent parts of this thread, and see if they have any insight on the problem.

Stahlwird

[stahlwird]

Follow up on my last post.

I posed the question that there might be some extra wiring at the front-port side of my USB plugs on my Lian Li PC7B case.  Well, after closer examination of the USB ports, I don't see how that would be possible.  There are only 4 contacts within the female USB port, so theres no place for an extra connection---UNLESS that extra connection might be to the surrounding metal, kind of as a ground.  But, since one of the four connections to the plug is already a ground, it doesn't seem reasonable that the surrounding metal have a connection, again, unless it is common to the ground connector.

Looked at the wiring diagram that came with my case, and it shows only 4 connections, one of which is Ground.  And, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the wires that go to the plug intended for the mobo header has NOTHING going to pin 10.  But, still got that same old problem.

Now, got another question: even though there are only 4 connections at the USP port end, there are 8 pins on the mobo header, and 8 wires from the plug to the USB port.  Why is that?  Is that kind of like the 80 wires used in some IDE cables, to 40-pin plugs--to be sure there is a good, solid data path?

[stahlwird]

Final desparate gasp!!!

I've tried all the suggestions in this forum.  Tried having Windows reload the USB ports and drivers.  Checked my wiring several times.  Even managed to get SP2 installed on the spare hard drive I mentioned in a previous post.  But, still no joy on my front USB ports.  Even tried moving the D-bracket USB connector from JUSB1 to JUSB2, and one of the front panel connectors to JUSB1  The flash drive still works in the USB ports on the D-bracket but will not work on the front panel.

Now, I'm beginning to suspect there is something radically wrong with the Lian-Li case front port wiring; but, it is encased in rubber so I have no access to it.

Lian-Li's tech support is virtually non-existant.  2 E-mail messages to them brought automated "We heard from you" reponses, but still no contact. 

Also, I've noticed that this phenomena seems to be isolated to MSI motherboards.  I have Google'd for several different wordings of "front USB problems" and "Lian-Li", and found nothing   Yeah, I know---this thread is in the MSI forum.  But, if others were having similar problems with other mobo's, you'd think there would be posts SOMEWHERE..

Now, I'm considering changing cases to one of the Antec or Thermaltake on which other posters have successfully clipped that mysterious wire and solved the problem

Anyone interested in a 4-month old Lian Li  PC7B Plus II, only used 4 months.

Stahlwird

[stahlwird]

Well, guys, got my front port problem solved!!!!  And, is my face red!!

The Lian Li case comes with two different types of connectors for the front panel USB ports: one is an integral 10-pin female socket, and the other consists of two 3-pin females and 2 ground females--for those motherboards that don't have the integral 10-pin male header.  Well, ole dumb me--I though both sets of connectors had to be wired to 2 mobo headers, one for each of the 2 USB ports on the front panel.

Got to thinking: there's already 8 wires going into the integral connector, and those separate little danglies make that another 8 wires.  Surely, you don't need 16 wires just for 2 USB ports!  So, I got an idea--I'll just unplug one set of wires from a mobo header.
Did that, powered back up, and tested my flash drive.  Works like a champ!  So does my little USB hub, and so does my digital camera!  Problem solved: I just had too many connections fighting with each other.  No wonder Windows was confused!

So, my faith in Lian Li has been re-established--they really do put out a quality product.  Perhaps the only criticism might be that their documentation (yes, there really was a manual of sorts with the case!) could be a bit more wordy for us dumbells!

Won't be needing that new case.  Thanks to all of you for your patience.

Stahlwird

[Mike]

Stahlwird,

So glad you have it sorted out.  I was wondering as Lian Li cases are top notch.

[mike315]

Awesome reporting of your problem, tests, and ultimate solution. 

I really appreciate your effort in reporting back to us, and you've got me wondering if my Day #1 problem (since about year 2000) with my personal PC Thermaltake case's top USB, firewire and audio connectors might be somehow related to your discovery.  After much trial, error & testing in the past, I finally wrote the problem off to a faulty circuit board - since all three different types of connectors are dead, were dead, and never were anything but dead.

You might be interested to know that Thermaltake - I thought a reputable company - totally ignored my numerous emails . . . I never got the first response . . . and I never bought another Thermaltake case either!

Thanks again for your good reporting.

[stahlwird]

Mike,

Thank you for the compliments.  I'm an analyst by career, so I try to get to the bottom of things.  Not the swiftest, mind you, but determined.  No one ever said I was clever; plodding and stubborn, yes, but never clever!

I think your analysis of a faulty circuit board sounds correct, since ALL your ports appeared dead.

In my case, I confused Windows by essentially hooking the same two USB ports up to 2 different motherboard headers, presenting Windows with a dilemma--trying to add drivers for the very same device on 2 ports.  After thinking about Windows actions, it makes sense.  The little "Safe to dismount" icon would flash on and off, as Windows obviously shuttled back and forth to the two headers.  NOW, I understand it--why didn't I then?

As for vendor support and response, let me tell you a bit more about my experience with Lian Li's web site.  They DO have a tech support link, and they invite you to fill out a form requesting help.  When you click the link to "Submit", you do indeed get a response that the request was submitted.  But, then, you are taken to an apparently dead link, getting a "404 Page not found" error, or something similar.  I submitted my question twice, and I did get two E-mail messages, correctly addressed, but with NO content, and no ready indication of the message source.   Only by examining the headers did I determine it came from Lian Li.  Subsequently, there were no follow-up messages.  Because they have no American office, and the wording on their web site indicates that English is not their first language, I chalk their non-response and errant web pages up to language difficulties.  Their case is quality through and through, it had everything I wanted, AND it came with a nice double-sided, one-page diagram for installation of various components, INCLUDING a wiring diagram of the front-port connectors.  (I just can't read! ) 

Best of luck with your system.  Oh, are you still using the Thermaltake case (can't remember from your sig)?

Best regards,

Stahlwird

[stahlwird]

Mike,

One other thing.  For USB ports, perhaps something like these two thingies might help:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=29628

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820176825

Some guys in a news group I read passed them along to me.  The Newegg link might also lead to other devices that would handle your audio ports.  I confess I didn't look for that.

Stahlwird

[marcovtje]

Same here ( P965 NEO-F).  Cardreader with 9 pins connected.

Symptoms: One core permanently used (50%). Under Linux visible that irqdevd was using it. reader was not functioning also/

Disconnect 9th pin, no problems anymore.

[Mike]

Guys, you should start your own thread and reference these posts rather than hijacking a thread.

[tommypeters]

I can't prove my theory, but both PCs were set to download WindowsXP updates AUTOMATICALLY and INSTALL them, and both PCs were using Broadband, i.e., "always on".  Tell me I'm crazy, but I think a WindowsXP update knocked out the USB ports.

The automatic Window Update is extremely buggy and has caused numerous problems for people, including crashes at startup. M$ has searched for the cause of the problem since October, but not found it. But manually installing exactly the same updates causes no problem, so it has to do with the automatic install.

[stoobie-doo]

I am having a slightly different spin on the problem

945P Neo3 mobo with firmware 3.2
Ultra Aluminus case
Win XP Pro SP 2

My rear USB ports work, on my front case, the bottom port works, the top port reports "Unknown Device" at all time, even when nothing is attached to it. No blue screeens, no freezes, just the annoying popup from Windows. Removing the root hub and controller have not helped.

This doesn't sound like the same problem that everyone else has seen with USBOC. Any ideas?

[Grayone]

Sounds like you have a bad USB port.  Check to see if something inside the port shorted it out.

[rommy]

i have a problem with usb controller on my msi 482m4-ild. when i enable it no OS boots ups and i cant even run windows installer. it gets stucks on welcome to windows setup screen in windows installer. i dont even have any usb ports connected. not the front ones or the backone and no extra devices attached to system other than cd rom and Hd. all the extras like sata and sound are disables in bios.

but no matter what the system wont boot up if i have usb controller enabled in bios.

[stoobie-doo]

More info... don't think it's the port. I added a new USB PCI card (QStor) and an internal hub (Belkin) which connects to the PCI card; the external ports on the card work, the new hub does not - same error. I connected an old hub that I had successfully used with the computer. That does work. Something is wrong with recognizing plug and play devices.

[Stu]

guys,

if you have a problem, please start your own new topic in the correct area of this forum, but reference this topic. it is difficult to help multiple users in the same topic, besides this is a Good Article now, and not really for individual troubleshooting purposes

[nthums]

A lot of posts on pin 10, but all need to read the USB specification, in particular the part on USB2.0.
Dare I say you all have it wrong.
In the pre-specification developed by Intel pin 10 was to be designated for overcurrent, but in the official specification it is for shield ground.
Prior to USB2 there was no requirement for the cable to be shielded, but with the much higher data rates under USB2 the cable needs to be shielded to stop errant noise from climbing on to the data lines and forcing misreads and re-requests of data. The continuous connection of the shield is accomplished via the metal shell of the connector. That is you have the 4 pins inside if you look in the end, plus the outer metal shell. That spec is to be followed from origin to termination with the exception being at those points where the wires break out without a USB2 connector and there they will be wired to the device. It has been a long time since I went over this with the board and read the spec, but I'm now thinking there may have been one exception and that was for a mouse. Check if you like.
It became a question for me when I discovered my case was not using pin 10 and I decided to check the facts. And despite it seems to have fixed a situation for some of you, one user in the forum for my case had an issue with front port not working for something, I no longer remember what, he picked up on my posted findings and posted back that modifying the case cable to connect fixed his problem. In our case, the harness floats at both ends, that is at the front port where the shell of the plug makes contact, it was connected to nothing.

I can not tell you who did not follow the USB Board Specification in each of your situations. It is possible the MOBO was not designed properly. One easy way to verify it is, check that pin 10 on the MOBO headers use the same physical plane as the shells for the USB connectors on the back of the board. They all should be signal ground, which may or may not be the same as power ground.
It might be your case maker if the ports for the front were installed by them.
Nor can I tell you exactly how much impact will occur if your shield is not properly terminated. It can vary according to the device plugged and it's demands. If it is USB 1 or 1.1 it should have no real effect because shielding was not required then. It will in part depend upon how much noise is getting to the data lines forcing resends. BTW, the data lines are a twisted pair.
Norman

[Bas]

USB needs 4 wires and that's it.
Pin 10 should not be connected and is useless.

Intel's spec, yeah right, let's start about that one.
If we would follow Intel, we wouldn't be able to use high powered systems at all.

In case you don't know, the metal of USB is connected to ground of your CASE, your motherboard is also by it's mounting holes.

The connection from board to usb port is 4 wires, and 4 wires only (per port).
You are DEAD wrong (so is Intel )

[nthums]

Before you run your mouth anymore and show your lack of knowledge do as I said. Go to the "USB Specification Board", no not the Intel stuff, it was never accepted in any manner.
The only thing you have correct is that the rear jacks have the shell connected to the ground plane (shield ground and power ground) of the MOBO and the case.
Nearly all front mount jacks are not mounted to metal of case, but in plastic bezel. And thus defeating the shielding on the internal wiring as well as anything you plug in to a front jack.
I had lengthy Q&A sessions with a couple of the guys on the board to make sure I read it right.
If it does not work this way, your MOBO manufacturer ignored the specification.
Some very early USB2 MOBO were released before completion of specification, mostly Intel, and if still available, some sites selling the internal harness came with pin chart.
Go read the USB Board specification and by Board I'm not talking forum. This would be more like Board of Directors, made up of a few manufacturers to come into agreement with a specification for manufacturer.

 

[Henry]

 Also easy to remove wire from plug this way. Insulate the bare end and tie it out of the way.

                     

[nthums]

henry, at least you are thinking ahead and not defeating being able to undo your work.
I find the picture a bit strange. Any of the pins can be removed that way and replaced if careful not to bend. And if you run across one of those early non-conforming to anything MOBO, mostly Intel design, you will be able to swap all of the pins around to meet needs.
Was this some special wire to meet needs of two jacks, rather than two individual lengths of USB cable?
The picture implies that because of the much heavier appearance of the red wire you are removing. Uncertain with old memory but think the power wires were either allowed or standard being one guage heavier than signalling twisted pair. At the opposite side is the appearance of a much heavier wire. Is that two sleaved together from breakout point or what? I have seen a shortcut method for directly connecting shield braid directly to pin and this reminds me of it. It can do the job if shielding is not too big for pin. Most applications and terminations for USB shielding I've seen use a pigtail device the shrink solders to the shielding and then has the appropriate size wire coming out for the pinning.
Maybe it is just the perspective of picture, but I'm curious.

[Henry]

 That's just some picture I found doing some web browsing on the subject. The wires in this picture are not even in the right order, correct is red-white-green-black. As far as the shield goes on my MSI bracket wires it's floating, no connection on either end. I should have included the following in my last post but here it is now.
 I tried to make it as simple as my brain can function and still convey the info needed.

  In this pic you are looking at, left to right 2-red, 4-white, 6-green, 8-black and no wire at 10.
 From this view of plug on opposite side would be lt. to rt. 1-red, 3-white, 5-green, 7-black and no wire at 9 (key)
 When plugged into header on MB red will be on the left.

 

   

[nthums]

Your connection is what quite a few have gotten when it comes to case wiring, and unfortunately it is wrong according to USB Board specification. After reading specification, I contacted members of the Board to make sure I understood it correctly. Not all manufacturers are members of the Board, but all were expected to comply with the specification. The specification contained many pages of test procedures along with signalling & power specifications, etc. Pretty complicated stuff. I was drew into a bit because it made use of CHIRP, compressed high intensity resolution pulse, something I had not seen for nearly 30 years. A special technique used in military RADAR to give added information of targets.
The shielding specification added with USB2 was like a footnote compared to the rest of it. Besides the very short paragraph adding that requirement there were a few partial pages showing pictures of connections. That small but very important piece of information was near lost among the near 500 other pages and suspect it was just overlooked by some manufacturers.
The Board required full compliance of specification to label product USB 2. But are near powerless to force someone into compliance.

After reaching a satisfactory understanding of USB 2 specification, it was my thought that maybe they would emphasize the shielding connections a bit with the next release. The USB 1 & 1.1 specification is much smaller mostly because timings and frequencies to carry signals are much smaller. And no shielding is required. Since USB 2, the specification for USB Mobile was completed. But it is mostly a continuation of the 2 specification. No mention of shield requirements whatsoever, but is required because of the mention in the Mobile specification that it needs to comply with USB 2.

I have not fixed my case wire since I hardly ever use those jacks. And they would meet USB 1 & 1.1 specification. And in the back of my mind is a suspicion. Even though all is supposed to be backward compatible, I have this thought that the processing, the coding and decoding of the signals, will be interfered with by noise. Possibly extra requests to make certain the processing got it's read correct.
And this labeling of USB2 packaging that the device is up to 480Mb/s, well that is a lie. The only 480 in the specification as I recall is the frequency of the processor. Bandwidth is shared, not in the way we might think, like one device gets the full amount, then it switches to next device, and so on in a time sharing manner. Instead each device is limited to a predetermined amount of total and it will never operate any faster than that, even if it is the only plugged device. This is easily verifiable if bandwidth for each device is shown in your device manager. If you have one device on root hub, you can remove devices from others and notice it does not change. If you have multiple on one hub, plug each device separatly and add up percentages. It will equal when all are plugged to that same hub. My understanding is this is done so no one device will take the full bandwidth thus maybe blocking something as important as your mouse or keyboard. Although I read some of it was done via ini files/install files, some of it must be registry files.
It read that the maximum allowable for high bandwidth devices such as HDD was set low enough that you could plug two such devices and have enough left over for high priority devices such as keyboard and mouse. Interpret that as meaning, 480 divided by 8 = 60MB/s.
You will never see your DVD or HDD transfer at 60MB/s. If you know how to alter files, you might do that, but it might lead to disastrous results with nothing left over for other devices. Since it is limited to less than half with reserve for some other stuff, figure somewhere in the mid 20MB/s. Back to bits, that is mid 20's, 25 times 8 = 200Mb/s would be more truthful on the packaging.

Seeing what a mess some manufacturers had made of specification, it was my hope that all would be fixed at USB3. It is now very doubtful that we will ever see USB3 unless there is a major leap in that technology. eSata seems to be taking over if you can not find SCSI affordable.
There have been some developments that put manufacturers in a hard place, having to pay high royalty fees tied into device pricing. Manufacturers have been able to do end runs around some of that technology. Intel's RDRAM was such, replaced by DDR RAM. And USB was brought on to avoid FireWire. In the area of HDD's, SCSI has been around for a very long time and was used in older Mac's exclusively. The price forced work in the ATA development. Even the HDD manufacturer had to pay fees for building SCSI drives. As ATA drives became a better alternative for those needing really fast arrays such as servers, it forced SCSI to develop faster. USB against FireWire did the same. Competition has been good for the PC user, except in one area, my opinion. That is Blu-Ray because I don't see the tremendous difference over HD except in the price. This link for a good chart on where speeds are at might be interesting. If there is not some technology highly licensed in the fiber area, it would be my guess that SATA will eventually use that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#SATA_and_PATA
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